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Pine OK?

Discussion in 'Discussions, Theories and Trial Ideas' started by Mama Crabs, Jul 12, 2010.

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  1. Mama Crabs

    Mama Crabs "Preparing For Second Molt"

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    I'm posting this in this section so people don't get mad at me for challenging this forbidden item.

    I saw that pine is on the forbidden list, but during my research for the moss I came across moss with pine needles in it. Of course I panicked and didn't use the moss.

    Then I called 2 companies that sold Sphagnum moss (ZooMed & Mosser Lee) and they said it's possible that pine needles gets in the moss since pine trees are in the area.

    So I called Bob at ELHC and Tammy at HCP and both said that pine is fine. Bob mentioned seeing crabs eat pine cones and they love to eat pine needles. Tammy pointed out that pine tress are in the area they love and she has pine wood items in her tank with no problems. They both believe that the "pine is bad for crabs" is a myth.

    I am posting this not because I'm trying to stir the pot, but to maybe inform others on what I found out. Honestly I have been stressed out by this whole pine thing, and now after talking to experienced crabbers I think I was worried for nothing.

    Has anyone else come across this info and do you have a view to share?
     
  2. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    I have not had any bad or good experience with pine, since I have never used it before. I never knew it was bad, until I found out one day on this forum. (It's a good thing I never used it!) From then on, I always thought that any type of pine, or any product that includes pine as an ingredient, or possibly by mistake, was poisonous to hermit crabs. I am not sure if it is DEADLY or if it just makes your hermit crab mildly ill, but I wouldn't know...
    The people you called might not be the most reliable source for hermit crab information, but they could be telling the truth. Although, I have a hunch, they might just be trying to persuade you to buy their product, by covering up/lying about pine being bad and all. As I said before, I am not sure, nor would I necessarily know, but I would assume that you should trust this forum over a company that sells moss that is not even MADE for hermit crabs... :idunno:
    It's better to ask someone else, than me... I am not really considered to be the expert on moss... But, I hope you find out the info. you're looking for, through one of the other members of this forum! I can bet you that you will find out the truth for sure by the end of today, or possibly even sooner!
    Good luck! :)
     
  3. Mama Crabs

    Mama Crabs "Preparing For Second Molt"

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    Just to clarify:

    The only thing the moss companies said was that "yes" pine may be in their product. They did not discuss whether or not it is safe for crabs.

    All the other feedback regarding the pine being safe for crabs came from Bob who is the owner of the Exotic Land Hermit Crabs, he's been in the business of crabs for over 35 years, he molts all crabs before selling them and deals with all exotic breeds (everything beyond a PP crab). He has traveled the world for crabs and has seen them in their natural environments. Tammy is the owner of The Hermit Crab Patch and deals mainly with PP crabs. She has been in the business of crabs for years.
     
  4. Donny (TMNT)

    Donny (TMNT) (Large Crab)

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    Regarding the subject of poisonous pine, I'm not sure its true either.
    It would help to know who found out about it. I've heard that almost all
    non-plastic wood caves are pine, and I had one for a while. Shelly had no problem with it. But I'm not even sure it was pine. Doesn't pine have that unique
    smell to it? Mine didn't, it didn't smell remotely like pine, and I know exactly what pine wood smells like. So, does anybody have proof? It would be really useful to many crab owners.
     
  5. vckums

    vckums Moderator

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    The reason we say not to use pine or cedar is for a reason. There's articles on all the crab sites about this. I know when we had hamsters/mice we did some research on pine and cedar as well and came across this info.

    "However, there have been concerns related to safety in the usage of cedar and pine shavings.

    This is because though these wood shavings can control odor, they are attributed with some natural insecticidal properties. This is nature's endowment to them to repel bugs, but the flip side of it, the natural insecticidal properties have volatile compounds like aromatic hydrocarbons and phenols. While detracting insects, they can cause respiratory illnesses like asthma, lung inflammation and other allergic reactions in hamsters. Sometimes these reactions can even reach the liver causing serious illnesses in hamsters."


    I've seen posts on various forums about ELH, none have been on the positive side. So I am wary about the information coming from that source.

    What it comes down to is this, do your research(this is meant for everyone) on items you want to use for your pets. You weigh the pros and cons of using an item that 99% of the forums/sites say is bad to use. Then you make the decision based on those risks.

    Will I use pine/cedar in my tank? No. Will I ever advise anyone to use it? No, based on what I've researched about it.
     
  6. Donny (TMNT)

    Donny (TMNT) (Large Crab)

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    I trust your research, Vicky, and its better to be safe than sorry.
     
  7. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    Yup! :hermzpoo:
     
  8. scoobdoo

    scoobdoo "PM Jason For Custom Title"

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    at one time I had bought something that said all natural pet bedding and it said no pine, I got it at K Mart my crabs went from happy energectic to listless and non moving. I was told because it was wood shaving it wasn't holding the humidity and if you did get it wet enough to hold it, it would start to mold. Plus there might of been chemicals in it that were not listed. I got rid of it fast! Went to play sand and with in a week they did a turn around and had no troubles. I will never use wood of anything for bedding. These little crabs cost to much & have so much invested in them I'm not taking any more chances.
     
  9. Mama Crabs

    Mama Crabs "Preparing For Second Molt"

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    I agree, I would never use wood bedding for crabs either. I was just mentioning that I was told that having pine needles in some moss was not a bad things and that the crabs live in an environment with pine needles and that they actually eat the needles. Too bad I don't live in their natural habitat so I can research this myself. Not many crabs wandering around in the suburbs...
     
  10. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    I live in the definition of wilderness; Maine! Aggressive, crashing waves, and coniferous and deciduous forests, galore! We have everything, here! I love Maine! :)
     
  11. scoobdoo

    scoobdoo "PM Jason For Custom Title"

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    I live in Illinois, & the closest palce that sells crabs and anything crab realted is any where from 30 - 50 miles away and it has been people that are mis informed on the care of crabs, so I do a lot of reading about them. All I have is the Missssippi and I'm pretty sure there are no hermit crabs there! I have always been told no pine, read no pine, so I take advice & just do what I think is best for my crabs. I thought it would be helpful to share my story of the bedding I used.
     
  12. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    :ditto: I'm the same, way! I just go with the flow, and follow the do's, don't's, and the advice that people tell me/give me... :yes2:
     
  13. emmac350

    emmac350 "Fourth Molt In Progress"

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    The thing about pine (and all of its relatives like cedar or cypress) is the insecticidal qualities, like Vicki said. Our crabs are very closely related to insects, which is why things with insecticidal properties can be dangerous to crabs. Another forum I am on had, a number of months ago, a member whose crabs had mites. We warned him not to, but the poor kid used the mite spray sold for use with hermit crabs and all of his crabs died. He then got angry at all of us and tried to say it was our fault, etc., but the point remains - the spray killed his crabs. It was only supposed to kill the mites, not the crabs. Ethoxyquin is both a preservative and an insect repellent - it keeps bugs from eating the food while it sits in warehouses waiting to be sold. It's been linked to bad molts and crab deaths. It's not supposed to kill crabs - heck, it's in crab food that's supposed to be good for them. Cedar and cypress both have natural insecticidal qualities. Cedar is used to repel moths to keep them from eating holes in your clothes. Yet either of them, if used in a tank, can cause a hermit crab's abdomen to get so irritated (that's why they're insect repelling - they're highly irritating to the insect) that they will eventually drop their shell, stick their abdomen in their water bowls, and die because it doesn't stop. Pine isn't as volatile of an insecticide, but I would not put it in my tank. Reason being, even if crabs are exposed to it in the wild, they have a chance to get away from it if they want to. There's plenty of air movement in the wild so they aren't trapped with a piece of pine wood that eventually gets more and more irritating. They can escape it out there, but they can't in your tank. It's why we try to offer the cleanest water possible - do they get that clean of water out there? No, but they can choose not to drink a nasty puddle's water if they want to.

    Sorry, that was a bit longer than I intended...
     
  14. Donny (TMNT)

    Donny (TMNT) (Large Crab)

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    Hey, no sweat, emmac350. You write usefully long posts.
    Anyway, to be safe, I just don't use it. There's no reason why I should.
     
  15. Mckenny

    Mckenny "PM Jason For Custom Title"

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    I agree Donny. Sometimes it takes a few more sentences to explain in detail "what-why and how" to do something. :flower:
     
  16. ema

    ema "Third Molt In Progress"

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    I've seen too many hamster deaths and respiratory problems from the use of cedar and pine to put anything cedar or pine near ANY of my pets. Overreacting much? Maybe. But my hamster is happy and not sneezy and my hermit crabs (while I had them. Tragically they died in a REALLY hard freeze this year that knocked out power for a loooong time) loved their tank.
     
  17. Mckenny

    Mckenny "PM Jason For Custom Title"

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    :sad5: Oh My Emma---I am sooo sorry. :hug2:
     
  18. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    LOL! Don'tcha mean, 'ema'?! Silly, ol' Jellybean! (I mean no disrespect, or offense, when I say, 'ol', just so you don't get the wrong idea/impression! :chuckle:
     
  19. Donny (TMNT)

    Donny (TMNT) (Large Crab)

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    I used to confuse ema with emmac350. I even thought they were the same person once!
     
  20. Hermies4Ever

    Hermies4Ever Guest

    I never did... But to each, his own way! :biglaugh:
     
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