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Concerned About A Product

Discussion in 'Store's Exposed.' started by crabbycrazy2, Jan 26, 2008.

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  1. Hildegarde

    Hildegarde "Preparing For Third Molt"

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    I got this from an above posting.



    This 'debate' is becoming quite heated. As I see it there are two issues.

    1. this product contains metasulfite, which may be unhealthy to crabs

    2. There is a direct accusation that the owner of the Crabbage Patch, when notified, knowingly changed the information on her site to falsify the correct information.

    This situation is getting to the point where I think people may have to be more careful about what they say. There have even been accusations of a 'conspiracy' and much encouragement from members of this site to discontinue using and purchasing Crabbage Patch products, the result of which would, of course, be to deprive the owner, Tammy Weick, of her livelyhood.

    As I said in a previous post, I have bought this product and have been feeding it to my crabs daily, along with a few other foods.

    So I got out the label that was on the bag I received with the food. My label says, in handwriting, that the packaging date was 11-2-07. I could look up my invoices, but I remember ordering it about that time.

    I compared the ingredients on my old label to the one above. I noticed that there were differences between what information I had and the ingredient information above.

    My label says:

    Guaranteed Analysis:
    Crude Protein (minimum)....35.9%
    Crude Fat (minimum)....8.5%
    Crude Fiber (maximum)....10.5%
    Moisture (maximum)....7%
    Crude Carbohydrates (minimum)....45.6%

    I also carefully compared the ingredients, one by one, to the ones you have posted and also found a difference there. The one above says:
    vegetable oil (sunflower or corn oil)

    While mine says:
    sunflower or corn oil

    Although I think your label is just a further clarification that the sunflower or corn oils are vegetable oils.

    The last two ingredients on the above list are:
    calcium supplement
    mineral supplement


    The two ingredients on my list are:
    calcium supplement
    mineral supplement


    Therefore, except for putting in the words 'vegetable oil' I see nothing of the ingredients every one is so hyped up about.

    Tammy and Kirk have been accused of, when becoming aware that some of the ingredients in this particular foods that were not beneficial to crabs, were engaged in a 'coverup' and even that there is some kind of conspiracy going on.

    I think it's time to cool down and use the facts.

    On my original label dated November 2, 2007 that has no mention of any metabisulfate and you have produced a print out of a label that has no metabisulfate in it. Before things get too carried away, does anyone out there have any proof that the label on Hermit Crab Kittle, made by Colorado Care Company, has ever listed this ingredient on their label?

    I'm very interested in this and looking forward to someone producing a label from between November 2007 and January 2008, that lists the dangerous ingredients as have been claimed.
     
  2. krackersmom2

    krackersmom2 (Large Crab)

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    I went to a webpage for products by Colorado Care Co. and the list for the kibbles was exactly the same as that on Crabbage Patch. There was a commercial brand fruit mix product that did contain the preservative in question. I would like to hear from the "others" who are also investigating the ingredient in question.
    I think it is good to inform the rest of us, but after the dispute is resolved. I think it is in poor taste to be carrying out a dispute and posting email responses on the forum. If you want to investigate, then by all means, do. Post your findings when they have been confirmed and any and all disputes have been resolved. I can see that this is quickly turning sour and is going to result in embarrassment and hurt to everyone involved.
    I would want to be sure my information is accurate and several other people will back me up before publicly accusing a business of shady practices.
    I've been trying to stay out of this, but i thought I would do a search on this kibble product myself. I really doubt the Colorado Care Co. and The Crabbage Patch went into the system and conspired to defraud to consumers.
    Vegetable Oil, sunflower Oil, and Corn Oil are all different products....Sunflower Oil cannot be listed as a "vegetable oil" since they are different products. They are also found in the chips as a binding agent for the ground corn...to make the corn tortilla paste. That's why corn tortillas are miost and pliable. I agree that the tortilla chips could not possibly be good if they are fried and not baked.
    My deal is this...if you don't care for a product, just don't buy it. This dispute could possibly have serious consequences on a person's business. Resolve your disputes privately and let us know how it goes when it's over.
     
  3. crabbycrazy2

    crabbycrazy2 "Second Molt, A Success"

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    I have received a list of the mineral and calcium supplements used in their products. This is the list that blaze has given me today.

    the salt is not sea salt, it is pickeling salt. I have no idea why the ingredients said another ingredient in my food. The ingredients of the calcium supplement are:

    Calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, calcium phosphate, calcium hydroxide, dried yeast, dehydrated alfalfa meal, sodium chloride, potassium chloride, choline chloride, inositorl, nicotinic acid, A-ocopherol acetate, D-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, thiamin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin A, palmitate, folic acid, biotin, cyanocobalamin.

    and the mineral:

    Brewers dried yeast, oat flower, calcium carbonate, soy flour, dehydrated alfalfa meal, sulfur, lecithin, choline chloride, a-tocopherol acetate, beta carotene, whole egg powder, date powder, apple powder, hydrolyzed dried lactalbumen, dandelion powder, niacin, manganese gluconate, potassium chloride, zinc gluconate, vit. k phytonadion, inositol, sodium ascorbate, vit. a acetate, sodium chloride, p-aminobenzoic acid, copper gluconate, thiamine mononitrate, powdered cellulose, riboflavin-5-phosphate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, glutin flour, cholecalciferol, cyanocobalamin, d-calcium pantothenate, xanthophyll, folic acid, magnesium oxide, oil of anise, hesperdinin complex, citrus bioflavonoids, dried kelp, capsicum, potassiumiodide, biotin, rutin, ferrous gluconate, ferrous sulfate.


    For anyone who would like to do their own research on the ingredients she has listed you can go to: Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It was my first priority to inform everyone what was going on here, to provide the best possible food for their crabs. It was not,nor is it now, my attention to hurt anyone's business. I would like to see some improvements made to a food that is not good for our crabs to eat, before they put it out on the market. I have given you all the truth in this matter, and now I will leave it to you to make your own decisions on it.
     
  4. vckums

    vckums Moderator

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    I dont think the OP had any intentions of saying there's a conspiracy or anything of that nature. She had concerns and questions, and she followed what we all tell people to do in this case. You contact the store, state your concerns/quesitons and wait for a reply. Usually the reply from the store is posted. I've done it, I know others have as well. If you go back into the Stores Exposed board of this forum you will see members posts about bad condtions in a store. Are they trying to deprive the store from making money? No, they are warning fellow crabbers of concerns they have. Same thing Crabcrazy2 has done.

    There's been concerns over CCC's food items on 2 other forums by completely different members of the hermit crab community.

    To knowingly sell a product that you know has a harmful ingredient in it is wrong. Especially one that is geared towards land hermit crabs. Regardless if it's a homemade product or a commercial one. In one of the replies it states that CC does offer a product with that ingredient in it.
    From Tammy's email
    "We thoroughly examined all of the food and treat ingredients listed on our site which we currently sell. The only products that contain a similar sounding ingredient are a couple of the T-Rex Crab Island Treat Sensations. Their label states “sodium metabisulfite (preservative)”.

    We all know FMR won't tell us what every ingredient is in their foods. We've heard the horror stories about bad molts and deaths after feednig commercial foods. We have advocates on every site trying to pursuade pet stores not to sell comercial foods. Shouldn't we hold the same concerns to online stores as well? Especially one that is geared towards land hermit crabs. We don't advocate the use of KK's, commercial foods or painted shells.

    Every one of us wants the BEST for our pets. That's the bottom line in all this.
     
  5. msdiamonddawg

    msdiamonddawg "Third Molt In Progress"

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    Well said Vicki and you are correct...I know I would want to know what is happening from a place where I am buying things that are considered "safe" for my crabs.

    As you say, we advocate against many different stores selling things not acceptable to hermit crabs, so why not online stores? It makes no sense to all of a sudden get upset because someone is taking the time to research and point out what could be potentially dangerous.
     
  6. blaze88

    blaze88 Hi, I'm New Here!

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    Colorado Care Co. is not a "big scary company." I personally own this company, and before this topic, and the email I received I have never even heard of this metabisulfate until I was recently emailed. My heart is in my gut right now, and I have been a crabber for almost my whole life, from the days of bad crabbing, and not knowing any better, to having lost count of successful molts, for setting up a tank to attempt hermit crab breeding, to buying crustacean nutrition and making a food for hermit crabs. I have never put any preservatives in my hermit crab food, and never will. My crabs have been going strong for quite some time now, and about 90% of their diet is my home made kibble. I can not speak for The Crabbage Patch, they are simply my retailer, so I won't, but if they made a typo on their ingredient list I am sorry for the misinformation. My own website, geocities.com/co_care_co sells this food, and has an ingredient list under the FAQ section. I am not denying what you may have seen on the ingredient list, but please know that I have never put any preservatives in my food, none of my fruits of vegetables have any additives (most I dry myself) and buy my ingredients in farmer's markets and all natural food stores, as well as occasionally my local grocery store.

    Also, I can fit a bit of a nutrition lesson in here, all fats can be metabloised in a crustacean's body except, polysaturated, thus the tortilla chips which contain this fat for their health. Please remember that hermit crabs are not human, or even mammals, and eat and metabolize foods very differently then humans.

    Vikums, if you could post, or email me (blaze88@gmail.com) the links to the other threads about my food I would be very helpful. I would just like to find any objections so that I can learn from them, and perhaps correct them if they are mislead.Thanks.

    More then anything though, I am glad not everybody is taking any diet blindly.
     
  7. Hildegarde

    Hildegarde "Preparing For Third Molt"

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    Vicky:

    I agree with everything you said. But in this instance, from the very beginning, serious accusations were made. Concern for the product seemed to become incidental to the cover-up theory.

    In her first posting, crabbycrazy2 stated

    "This is the kicker though! I emailed The Crabbage Patch asking them about this and how it can be good for the crabs. When revisiting the site last night they had taken it off the ingredient list and substituted calcium and minerals supplements in it's place. I was shocked and appalled that they could misinform people like that..."

    According to crabbycrazy2, she received a timely response from Kirk Weick assuring her that there was no metabisulfite in the product. But she insisted that the information on the site had been falsified.

    You, too, Vicky agreed with her.

    Again, a very serious accusation, especially coming from a moderator who is also a business competitor of The Crabbage Patch.

    I expressed my concern from the beginning because I was feeding this kibble to my crabs daily. But I also had a hard time believing that Tammy would do what she was accused of.

    Since things seemed to be getting out of hand, I searched a bit to see if I still had the original packaging the CCC Kibble came in. And I found it. And I also found that the ingredients were exactly the same on November 2, 2007 as they were when this posting was first started.

    Yet we have a member swearing, in no uncertain terms, she and others saw this ingredient on the label and were backed up by you, Vicky, in a very strongly worded posting in which you claimed you had seen it and accused Tammy of deleting the items in question.

    You stated that there were two other sites that had concerns about the CCC Kibble. I looked around on a few other sites and didn't see anything regarding this issue. I would like to know what sites these were so I can make sure they're not turning their concerns into a witch hunt, as happened here. If you don't want to publish them you can of course pm me.

    If someone can show proof of these accusations, I would be the first to censure both The Crabbage Patch and CCC. If not, then these people are owed a very sincere apology for the strong accusations leveled against them.
     
  8. vckums

    vckums Moderator

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    Yes I stated I saw the ingredient on there. I was given the link, I looked at it. I copied and pasted the ingredient and found the definition on Wiki. Do I have proof? No I didn't take a screen shot. I stated what I saw. The ingredient isnt on there now, and I'm going by what MY eyes saw.

    Since I run a business I can't be conerned with crab foods other then my own? If someone brings my attention to something, regardless if it's food or care, I will look into it. Moderator or otherwise. The other 2 sites are LHC.com and HCA.com. Check them out. Since the topic of me being a "competitor" was brought up, in the thread at hca.com another "competitor" expressed her concerns over CCC's ingredients as well as regular members. We must be conspiring right. Again wrong, many are concerned and have questions. If only 1 person had seen this, then maybe it could be an oversight or a typo.

    I don't need to appologize for being concerned. I stated what I saw, and what I looked up.

    I'm sorry you feel this is a witch hunt. However, you are very wrong on this. Again, there isn't a cover up theory or conspiracy. I didn't use those words, you did. This isn't UFO's.

    Everyone in this thread had stated their concerns, no matter what they are. Crabcrazy2 put the information and her concerns out there for members to make their own decisions on. If a member has a concern they are welcome to express it here. If you don't agree, thats ok. It's been discussed in other threads that people can have an opinion and someone can disagree with it, and thats acceptable.
     
  9. alli'smommy

    alli'smommy "Preparing For Third Molt"

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    Hildegarde-you are mad because you feel people are "attacking" your friends, yet, you are "attacking" Vicki simply because she sells crab products. We have pointed out before that Crabbage Patch is misleading in it's crab care, giving very wrong advice to crab owners. Yet you continue to push them constantly on this site. If you truly feel we are as imcompetent as you act, why do you keep coming back to belittle the members and moderators? You steer people away from HCRU and that is wrong. I have been extremely offended on many occasion by your remarks and I don't understand why you feel the way you do. To question Vicki's concern because she is "a business competitor" is shocking-even from you. Our number one concern is for the well being of the crabs, not the well being of a friend's business-or our own.
     
  10. vckums

    vckums Moderator

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    Blaze, I posted the sites on my previous post.

    Welcome to HCRU. I hope you can understand that this thread wasn't started to attack you or CP. I know that wasn't my intention, and I doubt any HCRU member would do that either. I didn't see the thread getting heated, I saw a discussion with many takes in this issue. Discussions are key for forums.

    Thank you for coming on here and stating your thoughts and answering members concerns. Hopefully you stay and participate on HCRU.
     
  11. HERMEZ

    HERMEZ Moderator

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    In all the time I have known Vicki I have never seen her not care about the well being of crabs- I have not always agreed with her about things but to say she is involved because of competition issues is false. She has cared about the crabs always.........she has gotten alot of flack about issues and other sites but her integrity remains steadfast when the whole core of the issue is the crabs and their well being.............
     
  12. crabbycrazy2

    crabbycrazy2 "Second Molt, A Success"

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    Blaze- I just want you to know, I'm not, nor am I now trying to witch hunt you. I saw something on a website that truely concerned me and did some research. Nothing you wouldn't have done in my place. I know your main priority is your crabs and the food you make for them. If you say it's not in there, it's not in there. I'm just disgusted that the CP did what they did to us, b/c we know what we saw, 3 people were not blind. The only other thing I thought you'd might like to know is that if the tortilla chips are fried, then the corn oil really isn't good for the crabs. I also wanted some expert advice, and I emailed Julia the supplements. The ONLY one she was concerned about was the sulphur. So, just make a few adjustments if possible for future batches and everything will be okay for them to eat. Just know that my main concern and always will be, the healthy diet of our crabs.

    Hildegarde-You took that screen shot I did completely out of text. If you bothered to read the bottom screen, you would have seen that it was for the sole purposes of the corn oil. If you want to continue having someone shove brussell sprouts in your mouth and tell you it's Jello, and that it's good for you, eventually you start to believe it. Because that's exactly what companies like FMR and T-Rex do to us. I merely wanted to get to the bottom of this situation and if changes needed to be made in the food, then I wanted to see it done. Know this, I'm not blind for what I saw, and I will say to you and everyone else, SHAME on the CP for not just owning up to their mistake, b/c not only did they hurt their customers w/ thier mistake, but one of their suppliers as well! They caused alot of useless heartache for Blaze, that could have been avoided. So who is really misleading who here??? As far as your comments about Vicki: well I think alli'smommy and Hermez said it all for me.
     
  13. CrabbyAbby

    CrabbyAbby (Micro Crab)

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    I am an administrator with LHC and on the 14th of this month had a member contact me to inquire of this specific kibble product. Her question was about the inclusion of fried tortilla chips however she copied the full ingredient list. Calcium and mineral supplements are the last two ingredients and metabisulfite does not appear. We also have a member with the same product purchased through TCP and a package date of 11-15-07; calcium and minerals included, metabisulfite excluded.

    I can't begin to guess what actually occured but I just thought I'd share that info.
     
  14. Hildegarde

    Hildegarde "Preparing For Third Molt"

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    Thanks for the info, CrabbyAbby
     
  15. CrabbyAbby

    CrabbyAbby (Micro Crab)

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    I hate to resurrect this thread but I really feel it ended very badly and when information was offered to show that metabisulfite might not have been listed, it ends abruptly.

    I'm not saying it was or wasn't there but on the 14th it wasn't bc that's when someone copied the list to ask me of another ingredient, and that listing matches identically to products packed in November.

    In this day of computer technology when even government sites have proven to be vulnerable, I wouldn't rule out that TCP wasn't hacked and before you laugh at the idea of someone hacking a hermie site, consider that the Epicurean Hermit unfortunately was.

    I happen to love The Crabbage Patch and I think Tammy does an awesome job researching and advancing their care. Before you pounce on me, I love Vicki and what I've learned and bought from her as well but I want you all to see that crucifying Tammy and Kirk's reputations based solely on the information presented here is wrong. And that my friends is my humble two cents.

    Crabbers are an awesome community of the most compassionate supportive people I know. Please let's not lynch each other.
     
  16. vckums

    vckums Moderator

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    Thanks CrabbyAbby for adding all that. I know I didn't think about the hacking scenerio. Epicurean was hacked and CSJ was always getting hackers trying to get into that site as well. I am also glad I brought my concerns to you as well.

    I would love for there to be harmony in the crabbing community. Hermit crabbers seem to me, to be the most passionate people I've come across on all the sites I go to. Hopefully this continues and broadens to other pet care.

    Lets all remember that tone and facial expressions can't be shown on a reply, so someones post may come across rather cranky when it wasn't intended. I've learned to take a deep breath before doing a reply or walking away and replying later. You can also PM the person to clarify their post as well.

    Peace, Love and Hermit Crabs!
     
  17. LSHermies

    LSHermies (Micro Crab)

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    I bought some in Dec and I do not recall that being on there. I remember wondering what the other 2 additives were...calicum and minerals... I have wanted to scan my package and post it but for some reason my scanner will not scan to file. I changed my start up and now it does not work...I have been busy and have not reset my settings to try it again.
    I think the hyjack thing might be a strong possiblity.
    I really do not recall that being there and I was looking for natural foods.
     
  18. dbolack

    dbolack Hi, I'm New Here!

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    This is from memory, based on past discussions on other Forums. Copper sulfit - particlarly - is a questionable ingredient. That said, there were many participants who had in past years or even presently used the product (at the time of the discussions ) with negligible or no detectable ill results. Others felt it was responsible for poor molts and molt deformities. I quit using it simply because there were tons of other options. As to the Tortilla Chips. I've seen the Manufacturer answer the particular question over on the HCA. I'm sure he'll get back to you shortly. I don't remember the exact details other than "Okay, that sounds reasonable." I'd like to add that personally, I'm a little bothered ( and as someone new here, I don't expect you'll care that much ) by the dogpiling on Tammy and the Crabbage Patch. I don't know anyone that I feel has done as much for increasing the health and diet options of our wacky little hobby. I personally credit Tammy with the majority of my molt successes thanks to her Worm casings. I may be a bit biased.
     
  19. krackersmom2

    krackersmom2 (Large Crab)

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    :eek:As far as I know, this has been over and done with for sometime.....I think this thread needs to be locked and not revived....I was not involved in the "dogpile".
    We welcome you to our little crab community! You will probably find that this "dogpile" was an isolated thread involving a few members and there hasn't been a mention of this in quite sometime. I too was a ittle disturbed by what was going on and wanted to mediate....and was merely suggesting that soemone confused a bad commercial brand with one of the better products offered by the Crabbage Patch. I'm sure you will find many favorable posts on this forum involving the Crabbage Patch....especially when it comes to shipping crabs. I hope you will feel comfortable posting your questions and comments here! I have never delt with the CP, but I would certainly feel comfortable in doing so if needed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2008
  20. HERMEZ

    HERMEZ Moderator

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    I will lock it now--thanks
     
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